"Batteries included" ecosystems are the only persistent solution to the package manager problem

This is a rather superlative and tunnel vision, "everything is a nail because I'm a hammer" approach. The truth is this is an exceedingly difficult problem nobody has adequately solved yet.

Fully agree with this! I think today .NET is probably the most batteries included platform you can get. This means that even if you use third-party libraries, these typically depend only on first-party dependencies, making it much less likely for something shady to sneak in.

> In practice you will tend to have a few, but you won't be vendoring out critical things like HTTP, TCP, JSON, string sanitation, cryptography Unless you are Python, where the standard library includes multiple HTTP libraries and everyone installs the requests package anyways. Few languages have good models for evolving their standard library, so you end up with lots of bad designs sticking around forever. Libraries are much easier to evolve, giving them the advantage in terms of developer UX and performance.

For a lot of code, I switched to generating code rather than using 3rd party libraries. Things like PEG parsers, path finding algorithms, string sanitizers, data type conversion, etc are very conveniently generated by LLMs. It's fast, reduces dependencies, and feels safer to me.

What are some examples of batteries-included languages that folk around here really feel productive in and/or love? What makes them so great, in your opinion? (Leaving aside thoughts on language syntax, compile times, tooling etc - just interested in people's experiences with / thoughts on healthy stdlibs)

or you don't use a package manager where anyone can just publish a package (i.e. use your system package manager). There is still some risk, but it is much smaller. Like, if xz were distributed by PyPI or NPM, everyone would have been pwned, but instead it was (barely) found. It's true that system repos doesn't include everything, but you can create your own repositories if you really need to for a few things. In practice Fedora/EPEL are basically sufficient for my needs. Right now I'm deploying something with yocto, which is a bit more limited in slection, but it's pretty easy to add my own packages and it at least has hashes so things don't get replaced without me noticing (to be fair, I don't know if the security practices of open-embedded recipes are as strong as Fedora...).

> "Batteries included" ecosystems are the only persistent solution Or write your own stuff. Yes, that's right, I said it. Even HTTP. Even cryptography. Just because somebody else messed it up once doesn't mean nobody should ever do it. Professional quality software _should_ be customized. Professional developers absolutely can and should do this and get it right. When you use a third-party HTTP implementation (for example), you're invariably importing more functionality than you need anyway. If you're just querying a REST service, you don't need MIME encoding, but it's part of the HTTP library anyway because some clients do need it. That library (that imports all of its own libraries) is just unnecessary bloat, and this stuff really isn't that hard to get right.

There are several issues with "Batteries Included" ecosystems (like Python, C#/.NET, and Java): 1. They are not going to include everything. This includes things like new file formats. 2. They are going to be out of date whenever a standard changes (HTML, etc.), application changes (e.g. SQLite/PostgreSQL/etc. for SQL/ORM bindings), or API changes (DirectX, Vulcan, etc.). 3. Things like data structures, graphics APIs, etc. will have performance characteristics that may be different to your use case. 4. They can't cover all nice use cases such as the different libraries and frameworks for creating games of different genres. For example, Python's XML DOM implementation only implements a subset of XPath and doesn't support parsing HTML. The fact that Python, Java, and .NET have large library ecosystems proves that even if you have a "Batteries Included" approach there will always be other t…