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TMWNNHNSource authorJan 4, 2023

Business & incomeExperience excerpt · English

>Underpriced use of public land sure sounds like a subsidy to me! …

>Underpriced use of public land sure sounds like a subsidy to me! I have no problem with raising lease rates for Federal land to market rates. >>US gas is cheaper than elsewhere in the developed world because a) the US is self-sufficient in terms of supply >Oh, I was unaware that the cheap gas phenomenon started in 2008 when we started approaching energy independence. Thanks Obama, I guess. Oh, come now. It is a fact that, both historically and today, part (not all, but part) of the reason why US gas prices are lower than in the rest of the developed world is because the US is relatively self-sufficient. (And before you bring up Canada, Canada significantly lacks domestic refining capability, as well as ability to deliver its own gas to the eastern half of the country.) 2008 to now isn't the first time the US reached energy independence; the US had this status into the 1960s, and if it really needed to it could have always reached this, especially when including Canadian supply. The Gulf War was fought to maintain oil supply to Europe, not to the US. >>b) US fuel taxes are less. …

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RC_ITRHNJan 4, 2023

Oh fun! I love when people Dunning-Kruger themselves on accounting (I literally just sat up straight in my chair!) Let's go through your argument (would you believe I did both read and understand the document I linked!?), but before we do that, let's look at some more traditional subsidies that O&G gets in America: [0] The GAO has reported extensively that taxpayers have not received a fair rate of return due to outdated fiscal terms. For example, Federal onshore oil and gas royalty rates are consistently lower than on State-issued leases and Federal offshore leases (see Tables 1 and 2); in fact, onshore royalty rates have never been raised. Likewise, bonding levels have not been raised for 60 years, and minimum bids and rents have been the same for over 30 years. If a lease is not sold competitively at auction, for two years it can be sold non-competitively for a modest administrative …

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TMWNNHNJan 4, 2023

EDIT to above: I, of course, shamefully erred in basic arithmetic. 135 billion gallons of gas and $4 billion in "subsidies" means ~$0.03 per gallon, not $0.34. Only reinforces my point of course by a factor of ten, of course, but still quite embarrassing.

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RC_ITRHNJan 4, 2023

>I have no problem with raising lease rates for Federal land to market rates. I don't care what your opinion is. Again, just pointing out that it is a subsidy. >Oh, come now. It is a fact that, both historically and today, part (not all, but part) of the reason why US gas prices are lower than in the rest of the developed world is because the US is relatively self-sufficient. That's simply not true! 2008 was the beginning of the trend toward energy self sufficiency; please look at the data [0]. The US was far from self-sufficient for most of the 20th Century. >You and I both know that when people here and on Reddit claim that "the US subsidizes gas and that's why it's so cheap", 99% of the time it's meant to convey the claim "US gas companies get zillions in handouts from the government" (in the sort of bags with dollar signs that Mayor Quimby receives his bribes in), as opposed to "gas …

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